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The (Coach) Q Factor

Because everyone just can't get enough of Colorado Avalanche coach Joel Quenneville right now, we're going to beat this horse to death if it's the last thing we do.

One of the major complaints among fans here at MHH and around the Internets is the ongoing goalie carousel that Coach Q insists that Peter Budaj and Jose Theodore ride, despite Theodore's consistent poor play (which has reemerged this season, right on schedule) and Budaj's clear dominance over the course of The Streak last season.

Consider for a moment that goalie tandems like the one Coach Q has tried to produce this season are rare and hardly illustrious.  The only example that comes close was the 1980-81 Islanders, who successfully rode the goalie team of Chico Resch and Billy Smith to the Stanley Cup playoffs, but it wasn't until Resch got benched for Smith that the team won the Cup.  Nobody else has ever had similar success.

So---setting aside the painfully obvious track record of Jose Theodore---what makes Coach Q think a one-in-one-out goalie team could work in Colorado?  Did Q ever do that kind of thing in St. Louis for the Blues, the only other team he's coached?

I'm glad you asked.

Joel Quenneville coached the St. Louis Blues from 1997 to early 2004, when he departed and was replaced by his assistant Mike Kitchen.  During Q's tenure, the Blues had an overall record of 307-191-70-18.  The Blues never made it past the second round of the playoffs, but they enjoyed a fair amount of success.

So how did goaltenders play into the Blues of the late 1990s to early 2000s?  In each season that Q coached, did he rely on a sole starting netminder or did he employ the tag team he seems obsessed with in Denver?

In Q's first partial season with the Blues, the second half of 1996-97, Grant Fuhr was the foundation of the team.  He played 73 games and finished with a record of 33-27-11.  Fuhr wasn't nearly as good as his Edmonton Oilers days, but he was still a fairly reliable guy.

1997-98, Fuhr was still around and still the number one.  He played a less-grueling 58 games, but still almost 30 more than backup Jamie McLennan.  The Blues made it to the second round of the playoffs that year with a regular season record of 45-29-8.

The next season saw the first true goalie tandem attempt by Coach Q, when he split the efforts of an aging Fuhr (39 games) and a young McLennan (33 games) almost evenly.  Perhaps ironically, that was the worst season the Blues had under Coach Q, and they finished with a mediocre 37-32-13 record.  They did make it to the second round of the playoffs, but Grant Fuhr played 13 games and McLennan only 1, so the tandem didn't continue into the postseason.

The best year the Blues had under Coach Q, the year that won him the Jack Adams trophy (see photo above), was 1999-00.  St. Louis finished with a 51-19-11-1 record and 114 total points.  That season, the big revelation was Roman Turek, who played 67 games in net, winning 42 of them, and relegated Jamie McLennan back to his old backup role.  The Blues got upset in the first round of the playoffs that year, but their regular season success was clearly built on a traditional, one-starter goalie system.

The following three and a half seasons, the Blues employed only one other goalie tag team.  In 2002-03, Brent Johnson played 38 games and Fred Bathwaite played 30.  Interestingly, five other goalies suited up for the Blues that season, including Tom Barrasso, Chris Osgood, Curtis Sanford, Reinhard Davis and Cody Rudkowsky.  None of them played more than nine games, however.  St. Louis and its goaltending army, despite finishing the season 41-24-11-6, was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs and Coach Q wouldn't last the rest of the next season.

In sum, the Blues' best year under Coach Q was done with a sole starting goalie.  The worst year featured a goalie carousel similar to the one currently being employed in Colorado with Peter Budaj and Jose Theodore.  Coach Q has never had considerable success with the system, regardless of who the goalies were or are.

So why does he still seem hell-bent on sticking with it, despite his past experience and the evidence right in front of his eyes?  

I wish I had the answer to that.  

UPDATE: According to Dater, Coach Q gave the team an earful during practice on Monday.  Clearly he doesn't seem to share our opinion of where rests the fault for the past five games.

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I asked

and you delivered.  Another nail in the coffin of Coach Q.'s decisions of late.  Not only has the goalie rotation never worked for the league as a whole outside of one rare occurance, not only has it never worked for Q in any of his NHL stops as assistant or head coach, but it also hasn't worked with the two goalies he has now as evidenced by last year.

I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall.

Mike @ MHH

by Mike @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 7:42 AM MST   0 recs

Re: I asked

"I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!"

by Joe @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 8:12 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

...

Verily.

Mike @ MHH

by Mike @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 11:35 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

that

is very interesting. nicely done.

by Draft Dodger on Nov 27, 2007 8:51 AM MST   0 recs

Chico Resch

In the playoffs Resch only played to two decisions and both were losses.  It was at that point that Billy Smith took over and won the cup.  So to clarify, the goal tandem has NEVER won a cup.  Billy Smith won that cup, Resch got benched.  And it was Billy Smith at that, one of the greatest goaltenders ever.

by Dario on Nov 27, 2007 9:46 AM MST   0 recs

Re: Chico Resch

Thanks, Dario.  I appreciate the clarification.

I'll make a slight adjustment to the post.

by Joe @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 10:34 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Well

Really I think He's going with the tandem until crunch time, just like last year. I think he worries about Budaj's durability a little and doesn't want to wear him out before February and such. Not saying I agree, but I can see the tactic

by Jibblescribbits on Nov 27, 2007 10:14 AM MST   0 recs

Re: Well

Why didn't he learn from last season that "crunch time" doesn't come in February?  Last year he finally figured out far too late that Budaj was plenty durable and the Avs missed the playoffs because they wasted more than half the season just screwing around.

Things are starting to look eerily similar.

by Joe @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 10:34 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

I'm calling BS

on that theory.  If he was worried about Boots' durability, he must have completely forgotten the 15-2-2 run.  That in itself showed that he could handle the load night in and night out, even under high pressure.  

I'm all for resting your starter, but in one night, out the next isn't resting your starter, it's a tandem.

Methinks Q just doesn't know how to handle goalies.  He's not the first coach.

Mike @ MHH

by Mike @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 11:34 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Season

I meant durability over the course of the season.

Not saying I AGREE with it, but it's a thought that could be in Q's mind.

by Jibblescribbits on Nov 27, 2007 2:19 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Ohh, and lest I forget

I never read anything posted after the words "according to Dater" ever again.  This is the same guy who has theorized that the Avs are looking at trading someone like Liles to the Pens for Fleury.

I'm saying right here and right now, if the Avs trade for Fleury, I'm suspending operations as an Avs fan for the remainder of the season.  How do you fix inconsistencies on your team?  I don't know, but trading for one of the most inconsistant young goalies in the modern age isn't it...

Mike @ MHH

by Mike @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 11:38 AM MST   0 recs

Re: Ohh

Well, also bear in mind that he's speculated for months about Forsberg returning to the Avs, Drury returning to the Avs (wasn't even close), and that the Flames were about to implode.  Turns out the Avs imploded instead.

The man's just trying to sell papers.  That's it and that's all.

by Joe @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 11:50 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Re: not just

But really, aren't we all?

by Joe @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 2:44 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Ohh, and lest I forget

I disagree, Liles for Fleury would be a GREAT trade for the Avs. I think that Fleury has the skills to develop into one of the best goalies in the league. He's got the fastest reflexes I've ever seen, all he needs to do is work a little on positioning. Fleury for Liles would be a steal for the Avs imo. Liles is a great player, and has lots of talent, but the Avs need a goalie more than they need an offensive D-man.

I still say that neither Theodore or Budaj are good enough. They should try to go after Jaroslav Halak, or if not Halak, then maybe Antero Nittymakki, he used to be pretty good, I think we need to do something. Take a chance, we took a chance on Theodore, it didn't work, probability says taking another chance just might work.

by Mike the Avs Fan on Nov 27, 2007 12:52 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Ohh, and lest I forget

I don't understand why Budaj isn't considered "good enough."  Last season he went 31-16 (that's good), 2.68 GAA (definitely good on such a defensively weak team) with a .905 SV% (decent, considering his staggered starts at the beginning of the year).  Then consider that his numbers were even better in every category over his last 17 starts during The Streak.  

He's got the stats of a perfectly serviceable starting goaltender, all he needs are the consistent starts.

I'm really not sure what Budaj would have to do to convince some people.  He's no Patrick Roy, sure, but who is?  Even the mighty Brodeur and Luongo have shown serious weakness this season, and Vezina-chasing Kipper's been a basket case.  Are those guys somehow "not good enough?"  Budaj's numbers this season are better than Kipper's, but somehow there's no question about the latter's role as a starter when the former is doubted at every turn.

I'd take Budaj over Fleury any day.  Budaj has talent, maturity, and consistency when he's given frequent starts.  Fleury only has one of those.

by Joe @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 2:53 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Re: Ohh, and lest I forget

You must remember that Budaj only started playing well when we went on the streak last season. The reason we were so good during the stretch run, is the whole team played well, which helped Budaj. I just really have not seen anything special from him this year.

I have been saying for a while now, you have to give a goalie a chance, either get a new goalie, or start one of our goalies 5 games in a row no matter what to let him prove himself. That's why I don't like Quenneville, he's not giving Budaj enough of a chance to prove himself by not starting him enough. That's what should have been done last season with Theodore to raise his confidence and mental attitude, instead Theodore didn't even get to start 3 games in a row all year. For a goalie used to playing 50+ games a year, that's a real confidence killer.

Because it seems to be much too late for Theodore, coach Q should have done the same thing to Budaj this year, let him start 5 games in a row, irregardless of how he plays. That would boost his confidence, instead of worrying about every move he has to make. As a goalie you should just go out there and play, not think about it too much. Well the extra time Budaj is getting from sitting every other game out is too much time for him to think about his game. Because of all this mistrust on coach Q's side I think Budaj's skills might have eroded a bit. If you eat an orange when it's ripe, it tastes good, but if you eat it piece by piece over the course of a month, the last bit will taste horrible. Same with Budaj, if you don't give him enough playing time, he will get worse. Unfortunately I think that is what has happened, which is why, imo, we need another goalie. Perhaps Lehtonen? Hedberg has seemingly taken the reigns in Atlanta.

BTW, Kipper is a proven goalie who ALWAYS starts the season out slowly, no one's going to start screaming for the great Curtis McElhinney anytime soon. Same with Luongo, I don't hear people chanting; "We want Sanford!" in Vancouver, lol.

by Mike the Avs Fan on Nov 27, 2007 4:13 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Ummmm...

Taking another chance on goal isn't what this team appears to need.  Aside from the obvious coaching changes (obvious to us intratube whores anyway), a defensive defenseman who is what he was advertised to be.  Looking at the current roster and what's in the system, the Avs are severely lacking in that department.

To the best of my recollection, Colorado has never developed a stable blueliner other than Foote.  Blake, Bourque, Hannan: Free Agents.  Sandy Ozolinsh, Liles, Leopold, Cuminsky: Offensive D-men.
Hannan hasn't lived up to the hype.  Leoprone is constantly broken, Liles doesn't have the skill set, etc. It's always something.

Fleury has reflexes, but he also has an extremely streaky tendency.  If you want to see whay he'd play like behing the Avs, just watch the way he plays behind the Pens.  The teams are fairly similiar; scoring depth, defensive woes, goalie-go-round.  How would he be an upgrade.  Plus, his sport-gold pads would clash horribly.  IMO, mildly goalie-educated as it is, he relies too much on his flexibility and reflexes, and less on his brain and sound positioning.  He's used his natural ability as a crutch for a few seasons, his head has been turned to mush by the way the Pens organization has treated him, and he's been showing 'potential' for going on three years now.  The Avs don't have time for him to blossom into a decent goalie without mental issues.  

Colorado thought they were getting a pro goalie with Theo and that backfired.  I'm for seeing what Budaj is capable of.  Ride him till he drops and see where the team is at then.

Mike @ MHH

by Mike @ MHH on Nov 27, 2007 8:45 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Fleury

But he was a first round draft pick.

If they were scouting a goalie (god I hope not) it was probably one of Ottawa's duo, not Fleury.

And let's not be too hard on Dater, it's speculation in a blog. The good news is that I can't lose any credibility every time I speculate on the internet. I don't have any to lose.

by Jibblescribbits on Nov 28, 2007 8:26 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Good points

I might be willing to take a flier on Emery, since he seems to be the odd man out in Ottawa.  Only if Boots is staying and Theo is going the other way though. I'm not sure an Emery/Theo pairing is much better than what we have now, but Emery/Budaj might not be a bad tandem if managed correctly.

Mike @ MHH

by Mike @ MHH on Nov 28, 2007 6:07 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

But

But if those goalies were 25 years old, never given a chance and started splitting time every three games with their backups would they be the goaltenders they are considered to be today?

by Dario on Nov 27, 2007 4:22 PM MST   0 recs

er

Because I'm an idiot I didn't reply in the right spot.  This is a reply to Mike the Avs Fan who said,

BTW, Kipper is a proven goalie who ALWAYS starts the season out slowly, no one's going to start screaming for the great Curtis McElhinney anytime soon. Same with Luongo, I don't hear people chanting; "We want Sanford!" in Vancouver, lol.

by Dario on Nov 27, 2007 4:23 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Re: er

No, no they wouldn't. Which was kind of the point of my post up there. Our goalies should stop splitting games, coach Q is in charge of that, he needs to realize that having a tandem won't work. Either give Budaj a realistic chance (start him 7 games in a row or something), or get another goalie. The tandem will NOT work!

by Mike the Avs Fan on Nov 27, 2007 5:47 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Ohh..

Then we agree then. I think.  Whatever.  Your name is Mike, so you can't be wrong anyway.  As long as we agree on THAT the world will continue to spin.

Mike @ MHH

by Mike @ MHH on Nov 28, 2007 7:50 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

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